Category talk:Unicon

From Rosetta Code

Note: This page is linked to from the Category_talk:Icon page.

How to go about solving the tasks

Intent .v. Direction of tasks

There was an interesting discussion on the Unicon group forum about meeting the intent .v. literacy in solving tasks. The Loops/Break task was used as a point of discussion.

The consensus seemed to be that we should be meeting the intent and not reading too much into the literal interpretation of the title. Unless there is specific direction within the task description we should have a free hand.

Thanks to Steve, Andrew, Clint, and Charles for this and other discussions. The overall consensus is that we should show our best. --Dgamey 21:17, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Style

We should be aiming for programs that are Icon/Unicon like. Not just for translations from something like JavaScript or Basic.

  • What should be done with if we find code that looks like a bad translation of something else or even something that could better represent Icon/Unicon. Personally I think they should be replaced with examples that show how the language can be used. There may be a case for keeping them as an alternate version and calling out that it is a bad translation; however, given that this site is about showing off the essence of languages - why would you do that? --Dgamey 21:17, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Quality

There are a number of aspects of the sample programs that need improvement. These include:

  • Commenting and documentation. Many of the examples (not just Icon/Unicon) have very little in the way of supporting comments, documentation, or description. There really should be a reasonable amount.
  • In a couple of cases there are links to IPL modules. Inevitably there will be more. How best to handle these? We could copy the code into a separate code box and call it out - but this could get repetitive. I believe that we should at a minimum place an off site link to the IPL web page for the code. If the library function is the core of the solution (as in Input Loop then it should be included. But if the function is less important a reference should be sufficient.
I don't see it's necessary to give a copy of the IPL library function. To mention on the language page that the IPL exists and then link to the offsite code where applicable should be enough. Java has a huge standard library that is expected to be present with all implementations, as does C/C++ and many other languages. Task implementations gloss over the possibly hundreds of lines of library code all over Rossetacode, as this would be far too verbose and destroy the ability to make quick comparisons, more so with a large comment block for attribution. MattOates 07:34, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Fair enough I wasn't sure what the overall convention was here. In this case where the main program does almost nothing and the IPL procedure does all the heavy lifting something more seemed to be needed. Perhaps a note and brief description. Or perhaps just the link. --Dgamey 21:17, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Multiple Solutions

What happens when there are multiple good examples of how to solve a task with different approaches? Should we show more than one?

By way of example, on the | Unicon Twiki - States Names Problem there are at least two different approaches to the problem. If we were to hit one of those here what to do?

Certainly we could talk about or refer to other solutions. But, should we show more than one? My take is that it's not unreasonable to show a couple of good alternate approaches in the same language. Just don't flood the reader. --Dgamey 21:17, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Constrained Tasks

I'm not sure how many of these there may be here. But using the Unicon Twiki - Find the longest string problem without using comparisons, math, or lists as an example, perhaps we should introduce a few. I'd like to see how some of the more traditional languages do this :) --Dgamey 21:17, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Level of detail where Icon and Unicon are different

A number of task writers had taken to explaining some of the fundamental differences underlying Icon and Unicon in individual tasks. It's better to put the text into the Introduction and refer to it from the task. See: To provide detailed introduction to Unicon and Icon that can be referenced in tasks.

ObjectIcon, Jcon and Other variants

I recently discovered Object Icon and will set up some stub pages for it.

  • There will be a link back here for this discussion
  • I strongly encourage other contributors to keep all the Icon variants together under one heading set as has been done with Icon and Unicon.

HELP Wanted

Icon/Unicon features

  • Object oriented examples
  • Graphics examples, particularly where we can show differences between Unicon and Icon
  • Unicon Execution Monitoring examples, where they make sense

Programming Tasks not Implemented

These will never end but Icon - tasks not_implemented and Unicon - tasks not_implemented --Dgamey 03:10, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Easy Wins

I expect that many of these tasks are already coded in the Icon Programming Library or one of the Unicon packages. There are also example in the Icon and Unicon books. If you find an interesting task, check these sources first.

Errors/Review Lists

See Template:Example-needs-review and Template:Incorrect. I'm not sure how you're supposed to know what is to be reviewed. Examples I've seen don;t have a lot of explanation.

Needs review doesn't seem to take an argument for formatting. Please add a brief note after the tag describing why. You can add more on the discussion/talk page if needed.

  • Use {{improve|lang|Explanation}} for code improvement such as in
    • {{improve|Unicon|The example is correct; however, Unicon implemented additional graphical features and a better example may be possible.}}
  • Use {{example-needs-review|lang}} when the code may not meet the task description. Especially after a task description change.
  • Use {{incorrect|lang|Explanation}} if the code doesn't meet the task.

There are a number of other related templates like improve that can be found Category:Example_attention_templates.

The IPL and Uni Libraries

Category:Solutions_by_Library need writing. Stubs have been created for:

To reference these pages without inclusion on the library pages use these: 

[[:Category:Icon_Programming_Library|The Icon Programming Library]]
[[:Category:Unicon_Code_Library|The Unicon Code Library]]

To reference library code and include the task page in the library use the Template:Libheader 

{{libheader|Icon Programming Library}}  
{{libheader|Unicon Code Library}}

Respectively these generate: <noinclude>{{libheader|Icon Programming Library}}</noinclude> and <noinclude>{{libheader|Unicon Code Library}}</noinclude>

Notes:

  • The Wiki automatically replaces spaces with underscores when constructing the link.
  • Some pages in the Wiki have a 2nd parameter for libheader; however, it is not used.

Unimplementable tasks

Mark tasks that aren't doable in Icon/Unicon as such. I believe there is an omit markup in curly braces, but I don't know much about it.

See Category:Icon/Omit and Category:Unicon/Omit

The syntax is {{omit from|language}} 

{{omit from|Icon}}{{omit from|Unicon}}

Implementations

There are Category Pages for Implementations of other languages. There are certainly several variants that can be described for Icon including Jcon, MT Icon, IDOL, etc.

Requesting Tasks

See Rosetta_Code:Village_Pump/Request_a_programming_task

Stuff Done

Language Formatting

It turns out the <lang blahblah></lang> tags just provides syntax highlighting via something called GeSHi for syntax highlighting. Although there are Icon and Unicon tags on RC articles, there is GeSHi for either language. The details on AutoGeSHi are at http://rosettacode.org/geshi/ and maintained by user BenBE. (Thanks Mike) --Dgamey 03:10, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks

  • Clint for valuable insight into everything
  • User:SteveWampler for valuable insight into co-expressions
  • Matt Oates for work on the syntax coloring templates
  • Art E, Andrew C
  • Peter Lane for numerous contributions and helping us cross into the top 20!
  • Anyone else I forgot?

Wiki and Icon/Unicon task Formatting

How much to put in the language templates

One question that comes to mind when thinking about Rosetta Code is how much to put into the language category pages?

It makes sense not to duplicate material in Wikipedia or on the language home pages. But it does make sense to provide enough information to readers to make useful comparisons.

While investigating this, the Oz, Python, TCL, and J category pages were pointed out as good examples.

Category Page Language Box

I had a go at the main box. Unfortunately a lot of the terms aren't explicitly defined here.

  • byte code compiled as I recall (way before Java made it popular)
  • strong typing (This was Griswold's contention based not on declaration but the robustness of the operator framework) I think that this description of typing isn't as useful as it once was
  • safe typing (based on robustness of the operator framework)
  • implicit type expression

Here are the Type System descriptions

Does anyone know of Icon/Unicon BNF descriptions? The box can reference these and other languages do it.

--Dgamey 23:49, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Programming Paradigms

Various programming paradigm tags can be added to the language box . I find that some of the descriptions are a bit vague and abstract. I'm also trying to make sense out of why some pages are Categories and others aren't.

Missing and Needed

  • None at this time

Clearly applicable

Clearly not applicable

Not clear / Mixed

Language Comparison Table

A first stab at the LCT

  • paradigms = procedural, object oriented, goal-directed (not defined and is this the same as logical programming)
  • not standardized
  • strongly typed
  • safe types
  • implicit
  • what is typc
  • nominative type compatibility
  • dynamic type checking
  • parameters by value? Not really. Mutable/Immutable.
  • Garbage Collecting
  • intended use .... a lot could be written here
  • design goals .... comments from someone closer to the development would be better than mine Clint?

The Parameter_Passing page could use an update from a SNOBOL/Icon/Unicon specialist

--Dgamey 23:49, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Other References

Wikipedia: Comparison of programming languages

How to reasonably handle Icon .v. Union similarities and differences

Summary

The writeup of Icon and Unicon programs on Rosetta evolved from lone haphazard additions to a more structured approach. The rationale behind how this came to be is explained below. It is however partially constrained by the capabilities of the wiki and limitations of understanding of the wiki. It is also due to the fact that while the two languages are closely related; Unicon is mostly but not always a super-set of Icon. I hope we have finally arrived at a usable format. --Dgamey 15:40, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Conversion to this format is ongoing and proceeding alphabetically --Dgamey 14:16, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Note on templates for other variants

I've stubbed in categories for Jcon and ObjectIcon; however, there are no code examples for either at this time. If you plan on adding them please add the code as per the templates in the sections below using a single Icon/Jcon/ObjectIcon/Unicon header like one of these (assuming all examples are present): 

<nowiki>
=={{header|Icon}}, {{header|Jcon}}, {{header|ObjectIcon}}, and {{header|Unicon}}==
</nokiki>


Template/ How to write up Icon and Unicon markup

As a general rule for Icon and Unicon tasks, unless there is separate code or notations about differences the code should run under both dialects.

There are several cases where Icon and Unicon are marked up differently:

  • the same code (or nearly the same code is usable with only minor differences requiring comment)
  • there is a significant benefit to a Unicon only solution that requires a separate example
  • there is no Icon solution provided (or possible) and the Unicon solution makes use of significant features exclusive to the dialect

A template for the general case is shown below. It has the following characteristics (a) the listing in a task is concise and visibly shows that the solution is the same, (b) both languages are indexed by the header macro, (c) the Icon language template is used for keyword coloring, etc., (d) someone searching the page for either language will find them with a text search, (e) where pages/indices are split the code shows in the first half of the alphabet making it more accessible.

Note: many examples in Rosetta use the second format as this general format arrived somewhat late on the scene. Eventually they will get converted. 

=={{header|Icon}} and {{header|Unicon}}==
<lang Icon>procedure main()
# pure Icon code
...
end</lang>

{{libheader|Icon Programming Library}}  
[http://www.cs.arizona.edu/icon/library/src/procs/XXXX.icn XXXX provides YYYY] 
{{libheader|Unicon Code Library}}

Output:<pre>sample output</pre>

The second case is where Icon and Unicon examples are significantly different. In this case the difference will be visually obvious in task indices. Note: this was used as the general format from April 2010. 

== Icon and Unicon ==
==={{header|Icon}}===
<lang Icon>procedure main()
# pure Icon code
...
end</lang>

==={{header|Unicon}}===
<lang Unicon>procedure main()
# Unicon code
...
end</lang>

{{libheader|Icon Programming Library}}  
[http://www.cs.arizona.edu/icon/library/src/procs/XXXX.icn XXXX provides YYYY] 
{{libheader|Unicon Code Library}}

Output:<pre>sample output</pre>

In the third case, only one solution is presented. At this time it is unlikely there will be an Icon only case. Unicon only solutions should be presented as shown below. If it is the case that the solution isn't possible in Icon then an omit template should be coded as well. Using this structure will keep the look and feel of the task index, be properly reflected in tasks implemented/not implemented on the language category page, and allow someone to provide an Icon solution at a later date with minimal modification by converting to the second format. 

==Icon and {{header|Unicon}}==
The following code uses features exclusive to Unicon.

<lang Unicon>procedure main()
# Unicon code
...
end</lang>

{{libheader|Icon Programming Library}}  
[http://www.cs.arizona.edu/icon/library/src/procs/XXXX.icn XXXX provides YYYY] 
{{libheader|Unicon Code Library}}

Template / Other Useful Markup

References to the Icon Programming Library

Use the following for IPL references. Note: if the IPL module solves the task, you should also include the critical code from the IPL so that a user of the site can see how the task was met without following offsite links. This isn't needed if the module is only incidental. 

[http://www.cs.arizona.edu/icon/library/src/procs/XXXX.icn XXXX provides YYYY]

During the header and works with cleanup I noticed IPL references are all over the place and some are not formatted nicely. Some tips/suggestions:

  • The library category markup formats new lines before and after. Placing text around it will not format cleanly as a sentence. Treat it like a heading.
  • The text in the offsite links is inconsistent and probably needs cleaning up. Just make clear the name of the file included and procedure names if you go to that much detail. "Uses YYYY, ZZZZ from XXXX", "Requires XXXX", and "XXXX provides YYYY" all work.
  • I thought about using bullets, but it's overdoing it.

--Dgamey 14:25, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Unimplementable

Use one or both of these macros if the task cannot be implemented. 

{{omit from|Icon}}
{{omit from|Unicon}}

Needs improvement

The needs improvement tag can be used to mark possible improvements and give a reason. 

{{improve|Unicon|The example is correct; however, Unicon implemented additional graphical features and a better example may be possible.}}

Works With (Do not Use)

The works with macro provides standard text. Beyond that I'm not sure what advantage it has with regard to indexes or special pages? 

{{works with|Unicon}}

The full syntax is below. At this point I don't see a use for this in Icon/Unicon tasks. 

{{works with|language|version}}

If you are cleaning up the Icon/Unicon headers, please don't remove either and add a works with. Works with appears not to add the task to the language so the category pages will be wrong. Thanks (Someone in a well intended cleanup effort introduced some of these and dropped the Unicon header).

You definitely don't need the works with template if you're using the header template for both language names. The header templates will add the task to the language categories. The works with template will only link back to the Unicon page (already linked to by the header). --Mwn3d 16:39, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for clearing this up. However, the task count on most linked to pages dropped when works with was used instead of a header. --Dgamey 17:21, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

The template suggests this may be incorrect usage, see Template:Works_with. Specifically it says "Do not use this template to merely indicate what language implementation you used, but only if the example relies on features only a particular implementation/variant has."

I really don't know what goes on behind the scene with this.

For now I am including it in the template. --Dgamey 03:11, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
It's now been removed from the template. I guess I have some cleanup to do (A-I entries). --Dgamey 17:21, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
cleaned up --Dgamey 14:13, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

--Dgamey 15:53, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Translation of

{{trans|language}}

--Dgamey 11:10, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Template for new tasks

The following quick copy and paste may be helpful creating new tasks. 

== {{header|Icon}} and {{header|Unicon}} ==
<lang Icon>
</lang>

<lang Unicon>
</lang>

Sample Output:
...

{{libheader|Icon Programming Library}}  
[http://www.cs.arizona.edu/icon/library/src/procs/XXXX.icn fib provides YYYYY]

When to have separate examples

Next is the question of when to have a separate Unicon example?

  • Clearly anything that makes use of a major extension should have a separate example. A simple example of this is HTTP - Icon .v. HTTP - Unicon.
  • But what of simple syntactic sugar and conveniences? Certainly they should be shown, but if that's the only difference between the Icon and Unicon examples, I'm inclined to say no. Consider the examples below.
  • Differences in program behavior are worth documenting. By way of example Loops/Break contains a note that describes how the Icon/Unicon random number generators differ in behavior.

A poor reason for both versions

Unless the task were parameter passing, type checking, and initialization the following would be a poor reason to have both versions. 

#
#  Icon implementation of foo
#
procedure foo(i)  
local bar
i := integer(i)
bar := 0
....
return bar
end

and 

#
#  Unicon implementation of foo
#
procedure foo(i:integer)  
local bar := 0
....
return bar
end

--Dgamey 02:21, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Background / How this evolved

Similar languages and the wiki at a high level

The differences between Icon and Unicon programs can range the from obvious to very subtle. It can include entire paradigms, semantic differences, syntactic differences, and operational/behavior differences. A key challenge on Rosetta Code will be to fairly represent these without (a) duplicating everything and (b) under representing differences.

I don't believe there is an ideal way to do this. Here are some of the considerations:

  • The wiki is only able to represent things a certain way and we need to work within the available framework
  • Most of the programs entered under Unicon were more strictly Icon programs that also ran under Unicon
  • There doesn't seem to be a useful way to have two very closely related languages:
    • Separate languages mean that contributors can take advantage of built in reports such as the Category:Unimplemented_tasks_by_language or Category:Unicon_examples_needing_attention. Combining the two would loose some of this.
    • Placing the two together everywhere they appeared might work but would be at risk of being sorted either manually or automatically (in the future).
    • The two could be placed together if they had similar names, say Icon_(original) and Icon_(Unicon). We'd probably want a redirect as well from Icon and Unicon. However, I suspect there are places where the underlying naming will follow through. Otherwise if the links could be maintained alphabetically, then this might work. Feedback on this could be useful.

Consistency and Eliminating Duplication

It's desirable to present all Icon and Unicon code consistently. This discussion was started to help achieve that goal. To that end, there are some objectives:

  • Eliminate duplication
  • Present the languages as closely related noting important differences
  • Be able to easily tell when the code is Icon/Unicon
  • Not confuse people new to the language

My initial attempt at this involved creating separate Icon and Unicon sections. Moving the code to the best fit. Often to Icon. Back/Forward referencing to/from the other section. This had several disadvantages including:

  • separation of code
  • inability to use the unimplemented tasks report or otherwise easily tell if the code was base Icon or exploited Unicon extensions

Next came realizations about how the wiki worked.

  • Manual co-grouping would be subject to manual or (future) automated sorting resulting in confusion and inconsistency.
  • Namely the {{header|language}} markup was responsible for registering completed tasks. The heading levels were not tied to this.
  • Using the unimplemented tasks report to track unicon extensions separately was potentially confusing to new *Icon programmers.
Discussion on how this evolved
May I suggest creating templates for these various references so that the wording can be adjusted uniformly if the need is felt? (Don't put the ==...== in a template, though, because that breaks section editing's ability to pick out the right sections.) Also, insofar as Unicon is not actually Icon (I don't know either language so I can't judge this), for the second sort of cross-reference, use a header of the form ==Icon== instead because that will leave it on Icon's unimplemented list for people to work on as an Icon-only example. —Kevin Reid 11:22, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
This is a good idea. I'm still not entirely happy with the way this works. I'd really like to be able to group Unicon and Icon side by side. But without doing something odd with the names the risk is that they would get moved at some point. --Dgamey 17:29, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
If the formatting and language/task recognition through {{header|somelanguage}} are separate this suggests a way to group the two languages together in a more satisfying and useful way. I'll post an update later. --Dgamey 02:31, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
As far as Unicon and Icon being different. Unicon provides some very significant extensions to Icon. There are also some niceties and syntactic sugar. A very few things behave differently (like random()). Having said that there are also a few things that won't directly move from Icon to Unicon. Probably 99% or more of Icon programs will run unmodified under Unicon. --Dgamey 17:29, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
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